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Post by Nightmare on Apr 7, 2013 15:45:26 GMT -5
Fine! go ahead. Talk about how everything is sh*t and is horrible... I don't care anymore. I just wanted people to talk about something they enjoy and have some fun. But that's not gonna happen. Apparently everyone just wants to hate everything. If that's what people want... fine. I was under the impression the idea was simply to discuss the new game. Sometimes in a discussion about a new game people don't like it. Maybe in the future you should title the thread "Pokemon Fapsession" or something so people don't get the wrong idea and accidentally show up with a complaint. Not on a Pokemon.
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Post by Swim on Apr 7, 2013 17:41:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm going to echo everyone else. If its just a new form because because, then I don't like the idea. Especially considering they really did chop off Mewtwo's butt and glue it to the back of his head.
If however, this is a clone of Mew or Mewtwo, it makes things from gen 1 relevant again, and that's kind of what I want in the new game, is for some continuity to be established or some overall story to be implemented. If Team Rocket came back with another clone, a Mewthree then I'd be okay with the idea. I'd even be okay with this new look. But not a new form just because.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 4:13:16 GMT -5
Ok... I disagree with all of ya.
I don't think it's a "bastardization" or a "slap in the face". I think it's a nice call back to a previous generation while still moving forward with a new one. And while the head-tail is a bit silly, I don't think the design is that bad. I happen to like silly.
And hey, one of the good things about it being a form... as opposed to an evolution or a completely separate Pokemon... is that forms are reversible. So if you don't like it, you can just change him back to normal Mewtwo and keep him that way. No ones gonna judge you. Maybe...
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Post by Nightmare on Apr 8, 2013 12:31:30 GMT -5
My biggest complaints about this new Mewtwo thing is personally I've always disliked the concept of Pokemon with "forms" that change shape... That and I think it's kind of silly/dumb to retroactively add a new form to a well-established Pokemon. Mewtwo has just been Mewtwo since gen 1, so unless they can justify it with an interesting story development (I probably won't find it interesting) it's nothing but a stupid bastardization.
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Post by Ruinaru on Apr 8, 2013 16:24:45 GMT -5
I just want it to be Mewthree if it has to exist... All in all, I don't think I'm a fan of this one. I like the Mew/Mewtwo dynamic as it is. Ehh. Ehhhhhhhhhh.
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Post by Swim on Apr 8, 2013 18:01:44 GMT -5
Ok... I disagree with all of ya. I don't think it's a "bastardization" or a "slap in the face". I think it's a nice call back to a previous generation while still moving forward with a new one. And while the head-tail is a bit silly, I don't think the design is that bad. I happen to like silly. And hey, one of the good things about it being a form... as opposed to an evolution or a completely separate Pokemon... is that forms are reversible. So if you don't like it, you can just change him back to normal Mewtwo and keep him that way. No ones gonna judge you. Maybe... I don't see it as necessarily a bastardization so much as a waste of time. Mewtwo was good as is, if this is going to be a thing, there should be a reason for it to be a thing. If they have a well thought out story aspect then I can get on board with the idea, even if I'm not crazy for the design. But if Mewtwo just has a new form for no reason (in particular if Mewtwo is not even in the game and only obtainable through mystery gift or some bullshit) then I see this as pandering for attention. But as Ruin said, I'd rather it be Mewthree rather than Mewtwo 2.0. If Team Rocket came back with a new clone and perfected the design, made it completely obedient and whatnot then that is something that could be exciting. It'd be kind of like the Mewtwo/Deoxys dichotomy they had in the Pokemon Adventures comic, which was a pretty cool story arc, which could again make characters like Giovanni, Red, Blue and Silver relevant again.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 18:18:39 GMT -5
Ok... I disagree with all of ya. I don't think it's a "bastardization" or a "slap in the face". I think it's a nice call back to a previous generation while still moving forward with a new one. And while the head-tail is a bit silly, I don't think the design is that bad. I happen to like silly. And hey, one of the good things about it being a form... as opposed to an evolution or a completely separate Pokemon... is that forms are reversible. So if you don't like it, you can just change him back to normal Mewtwo and keep him that way. No ones gonna judge you. Maybe... I don't see it as necessarily a bastardization so much as a waste of time. Mewtwo was good as is, if this is going to be a thing, there should be a reason for it to be a thing. If they have a well thought out story aspect then I can get on board with the idea, even if I'm not crazy for the design. But if Mewtwo just has a new form for no reason (in particular if Mewtwo is not even in the game and only obtainable through mystery gift or some bullcrap) then I see this as pandering for attention. But as Ruin said, I'd rather it be Mewthree rather than Mewtwo 2.0. If Team Rocket came back with a new clone and perfected the design, made it completely obedient and whatnot then that is something that could be exciting. It'd be kind of like the Mewtwo/Deoxys dichotomy they had in the Pokemon Adventures comic, which was a pretty cool story arc, which could again make characters like Giovanni, Red, Blue and Silver relevant again. Well... we don't know the story behind it yet. It could be interesting... then again, it could also be some bulls*** thrown together at the last minute to try and justify this. Can really say just yet. What I can say is that Team Rocket is more than likely not going to be involved. After the events of Gold/Silver, it doesn't seem like we're going to see them again. And even on the off chance they do show up, they're not going to be connected to this. Remember, in game canon, Team Rocket had no connection to Mewtwo's creation.
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Post by Swim on Apr 8, 2013 19:17:46 GMT -5
Are you kidding? Team Rocket was totally involved with Mewtwo's creation. They don't explicitly state it, but Mr. Fujii probably worked for Team Rocket at some point. And pretty much everything Team Rocket was trying to do in Red/Blue is because there's a berserk Mewtwo somewhere out there.
What kind of hi-jinks do they get up to in Red/Blue? Well for starters they steal the Silph Scope and go screwing around in Lavender Tower and inadvertently kill that Marowak. But why the heck are they there? Because Mewtwo. Ghost Pokemon were supposed to be good against Psychics, so Giovanni sent them there to get some, why the hell else would they steal the Silph Scope, its literally good for nothing else.
Once you screw up that plan the only thing left to do is invade Silph and forcibly obtain the Master Ball, which can catch any Pokemon, even legendaries with no problem. And then you screw that up. Giovanni was trying to save the world. Save it so he could conquer it for himself, but you can see how all of their actions are motivated by regaining control of Mewtwo. Only after that's no longer an issue and Giovanni peaces out they start doing retarded things like chopping off Slowpoke tails...
So you can see how if Giovanni decided to lay low for a couple of years until the Rockets developed a fully obedient Mewthree and then came back with a vengeance there might be some hype. But if Mewtwo's tail just decides to relocate itself to the back of his head for no reason it might seem like GameFreak is trying to create hype out of nothing.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 21:27:48 GMT -5
Blah blah fan theory blah blah.
There was no connection to Mewtwo and Team Rocket in the games. Ever. You're seeing s*** that isn't there. Show me some actual connection... something that is actually mentioned in the games, and you could have a point. But there isn't anything like that. So it's all just fan theories.
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Post by Swim on Apr 8, 2013 21:44:25 GMT -5
It makes complete sense though, what else are you supposed to use the Silph Scope for other than to capture ghosts? And why are you butt-hurt anyway, you know this would make Pokemon better.
Anydangway, I'm hopeful Team Rocket will be back. The fact that they've gotten more attention in that dumb cartoon makes me think that the producers have figured out that we like a little bit of a plot with our "blah blah blah, collect 100 new blobs, blah blah blah everything the same, blah blah blah completely new team with same retarded goal and a new league with all the same type combinations blah blah blah, we'll never change this formula."
This is reaching a little bit, but a grunt in N's Castle did mention Team Rocket right at the end of the game and said that their plans were thwarted because "they drew too much attention to themselves." So if Giovanni were to lay low for say, 4 generations, and suddenly come back with a Mewthree and be ready to go, I'd imagine there would be some hype.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 21:52:34 GMT -5
It makes complete sense though, what else are you supposed to use the Silph Scope for other than to capture ghosts? And why are you butt-hurt anyway, you know this would make Pokemon better. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not because the connections aren't there! There is nothing saying anyone that worked on Mewtwo was working with Team Rocket. There is nothing saying Team Rocket wanted a ghost Pokemon to battle Mewtwo (And that would be a really stupid plan because all Gen 1 ghost Pokemon are part poison, so they would be at a disadvantage against Mewtwo). There's nothing saying Giovanni wanted the Master Ball to catch Mewtwo. There are no connections at all! They don't exist. That's why I have a problem with it! There is absolutely nothing to go off of except stuff someone made up, and you're acting like it's canon. Guess what, it's not.
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Post by Nightmare on Apr 8, 2013 22:03:34 GMT -5
I dunno man seems pretty legit to me.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 22:16:54 GMT -5
I dunno man seems pretty legit to me. I will admit, as far as theories go... it's a pretty good one. Much better than the Cubone-Kangaskhan Connection or the Butterfree-Venomoth Switch. But it still suffers from the one thing that all fan theories have... lack of decent in game evidence.
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Post by Nightmare on Apr 8, 2013 22:27:12 GMT -5
Personally I didn't really think of Team Rocket as having created Mewtwo (not until the first movie anyway) but when I played it the first time it was more like I had assumed they were trying to catch him at least, regardless of his origin. Though I'm pretty sure it is intensely legit canon that Mewtwo IS a clone of Mew so SOMEBODY had to have created him. Like Swim said though there's not much point in their actions in Lavender Town or Silph Co. if they weren't trying to catch Mewtwo (if memory serves they were poking around Cerulean City at the beginning of the game too...)
It seems to me like a good story doesn't have to spell every little detail out for you and state everything plain as day... Most good stories show some subtlety and force you to read between the lines a little to get the full story. I felt like the Team Rocket trying to get Mewtwo thing was such an implication... Though you can also maybe chalk them not stating that up to the age demographic of the original games. Pokemon's first generation was aimed at children.
Most kids that played Pokemon though didn't have very strong grasps on complex stories and I know a few people that couldn't even read when they first started playing. It may have been a call on Game Freak's part to not overcomplicate the game with lots of long explainations and story stuff. I feel like the reason the newer generations have had more story development and have been trying (but failing) to capture your attention with deeper villains and more involved backstories is because Pokemon's age demographic has expanded widely to adults since the debut of the first generation.
Whether the Team Rocket > Mewtwo connection is cannon or not, I don't know. I feel like it could be though. The reason for not outright saying so could be either clever storytelling, or unwillingness to make the games so story-heavy for the sake of the kids playing the first games way back when. But I think it's inappropriate to completely discredit it as noncanon just based on the fact that Professor Oak didn't teleport into the room and say "OH YEAH TEAM ROCKET IS AFTER MEWTWO GUYS." If someone with authority on the matter discredited it then it'd be different, but I feel like Nintendo would prefer not to answer and leave it up to your own speculation if you asked.
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Post by Tony on Apr 8, 2013 22:47:15 GMT -5
Either way, I doubt there's gonna be much (if any) Team Rocket in the new games. And honestly, I'm more than ok with that. As of right now, I'm gonna start wondering what the new Professor's focus of study is going to be.
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