Fitna the movie

[J.Y.]

Just watch this. Any comments?

[Professor Fann]

The freedom of speech there is far too high, and there ought to be restrictions, or else the social harmony is disturbed, just like what the stupid Danes did when they published those Prophet Muhammad cartoons, and recently for the second time.

All these people have no idea that their ideas and words hurt people deeply.

[Nightmare]

They don't care, FanWriter. Unless you believe in what they do, they don't care if they hurt you or not. In fact, they'd slit your throat if they had the chance.

This is one of the reasons I've always thought people would be better off without religion. Some of these religions out there tell people to murder each other. and they actually believe it's the right thing to do.

Though it goes without saying that not all religions are like that.


This movie didn't show me anything I didn't already know about Islam. But it's nice to see more people are seeing for what it really is.

[Professor Fann]

... since when did any religion ever tell people to murder each other?

Give me one example and I'd try to prove the other way round.

It's the people's misinterpretations of certain aspects here and there that made things so wrong, but religion in its entirety is for blame. The people are for blame for misinterpretations, not the teachings.

Can't we be all sensitive to each other's feelings ...

[Nightmare]

It says in the Koran (sp?) itself that non-believers should not be trusted and promotes miliraty action against them. Islam is a pretty crazy religion. It's not all about slaughter, but it does teach that if you don't worship Allah, you don't deserve to live. Though it is true some of the parts of the text is taken out of context, and because of this, unnecessary violence ensues, but it does without a doubt promote violence towards non-believers.

As much as we'd all like to be "sensitive to each others feelings", all logic goes out the window when Religion gets involved. Right and wrong, and the value of human lives don't matter in religion, what matters is the word of God.

That's why I've never been much into religion. I believe in deciding for yourself what's right and what's wrong, not obeying the morals of someone or something that may or may not exist/has been dead for hundreds/thousands of years.

[Professor Fann]

Koran is correct in American spelling, so you don't have to worry of that one.

I'm not going to comment on the other two praragraphs, as those are personal thoughts which I will have to respect. But thus far, I shall comment on the first paragraph since I have more or less learned the history of Islam and such in high school and I shall apply some analysis here.

Back then during Muhammad's time, there were much social chaos and lack of any moral justice of the sorts. Baby girls were buried alive in pagan Arabia there, adn yet men marry the beautiful ladies. The persecution there is horrible. Worshipping of nonsensical idols was widespread and the society as in a whole was leading to nowhere good. What Muhammad taught during taht time, and those words are still preserved today, was simply in according with the situation at that time.

"Non-believers should not be trusted" - I beg this part wrong. During his time, many clan leaders wanted Muhammad dead, becuase his so-called teaching toward only one God of "virtue' at that time was terribly in contrast with their own multiple idol worship and that affected business profit heavily. People were required to abandon their practices, which they enjoyed so much at that time, those we view them now as totally chaotic, not moral and unethical. Anyways, he fled Mecca where he was born and wanted to retake the city because he wanted to eliminate all those unenthical and moral practices. When he won the wars adn retook the city, he forgave the people who once hated him and wanted him dead, the same people who practised idol worship, lust, and otehr sorts of terrible practices. They repented and indeed all those practices were gone. Them non-believers were treated with mercy and love and they willingly turned over a new leaf.

This comment also goes as refutal to "but it does teach that if you don't worship Allah, you don't deserve to live." That was because at Muhammad's time, there was so lack of virtue and moral and purpose of living. People who don't know what it means to go back to the path of goodness and still stubbornly remain practising evil deeds and rituals, ... most of us now will even say that these lechers are better off dead than harming the good and corrupting everyone's hearts. This is no different in any kind of society. People who know teh value of goodness and virute, like you and I, will shun those who stubbornly hold on teh bad habits and practices, and we want them dead, because they are stubborn and as long as they never show any effort to turn over, they will never cease harming others. Peopel who steal, continually rape and other sorts of crimes out of petty gain ... some of these peopel are too immersed in it till they are beyond redemption. Similarly, at that time, there are also many who were beyond redemption.

But as you can see, I already pointed out that not all was lost, and those who survived and were forgiven before their times were up to pass on - they repented. There are certain points of time in your life where you cannot see the light. Before Islam came at that region, there was no chance for self-redemption, so it might be said taht those evil people are better off dying. When Islam triumphed, they finally understood all the mistakes they had done adn they were given a chance.

"promotes miliraty action against them" - see in another way. You only attack when someone else attacks you first, right? That was how it was during Muhammad's time. The pagan people kept on attacking and wanted to kill all those under him. So, it is natural for Muhammad and his people to defend themselves.So, which one is better - to let the pagans kill Muhammad and allow war-like practices to continue on decades, or to attack and end mass murders and wars? There was one instance before Muhammad where a simple misunderstanding caused a 40 year war (really!) between two clans. That is simply sick. We all know that we cannot allow more murder to perpetuate in a massive scale. So, in short, that military action against the pagans was made because the pagans attacked first, and Muhammad squezed them into a situation where they were able to be granted mercy and a second chance to start over.

"Though it is true some of the parts of the text is taken out of context, and because of this, unnecessary violence ensues" - this is correct. You know it well. It is because "some of the parts of the text is taken out of context" by living people today that there's "violence". You cannot simply say that Islam "promote" violence. If you do say so, then probably you are no different than the few Europeans who are ignorant and stereotype Muslims in this fashion.

But of course, I'm not judging anyone here. You judge yourself, I judge myself.

I'm just giving my argument here against potentially bad thoughts. I hope you can read this whole lot, as I wasn't able to organize it so well since all teh ideas came in a flash, but hopefully its proper message comes on.

[J.Y.]

Fanwriter's right. No religion or God has the words written as "Those who disobey shall die." Usually, people tend to believe in what they see or think as right. They only decide what is right or wrong. Sadly, they never thought of what is CORRECT instead. I wouldn't say that they have misunderstood God's words. I would just say that they have believed in the wrong way.

One very very good example. Have you guys seen the anime or manga of Death Note before? That's exactly the same as what is going on today.

Anyway, for my country, Malaysia is a multi-racial country. After the publishing of this movie, the Islams there were badly provoked, they wanted the Dutch filmmaker dead. Man, this incident sure made out country a little unstable right now.

[Nightmare]

From what I saw, you didn't really disprove anything I said, but merely justified it. -.-;

And yes, there are parts of the Koran that do encourage violence against non-believers. Read it sometime.

I'm not saying that the Islam religion is solely violence and bloodshed, that's rediculous, it also promoted pacifism at parts. But it does speak rather negatively of other religions, and violently against non-believers.

So call me an ignorant European if you'd like, but I'm afraid I wouldn't call myself either. =/

[RELLIK]

its a bunch of BS that breeds a hierarchy of power. if you wanna stay in power or your scared, kill the disbeleivers.

[Sonic]

nightmaremmzero said:

It says in the Koran (sp?) itself that non-believers should not be trusted and promotes miliraty action against them. Islam is a pretty crazy religion. It's not all about slaughter, but it does teach that if you don't worship Allah, you don't deserve to live. Though it is true some of the parts of the text is taken out of context, and because of this, unnecessary violence ensues, but it does without a doubt promote violence towards non-believers.

As much as we'd all like to be "sensitive to each others feelings", all logic goes out the window when Religion gets involved. Right and wrong, and the value of human lives don't matter in religion, what matters is the word of God.

That's why I've never been much into religion. I believe in deciding for yourself what's right and what's wrong, not obeying the morals of someone or something that may or may not exist/has been dead for hundreds/thousands of years.

Good to know we agree on some things man ;D

The last 2 paragraphs I mean. I've never read the Koran. =P

[viruszero]

I'm sorry but when my family members, neighbours, countrymen (and undoubtably women as well) fought for freedom in World War 2. They did not do so just so that 64 years later some irate muslim extremists could tell me what I can and cannot say. I refuse to allow that. As the muslim extremists are doing the very thing that they say we cannot. We make fun of their Muhammad and they send death threats. Yet in that video (if it is accurate) then here they are praising Hitler and wishing for the extinction of all Jewish people...

They (the extremists at least) want to kill us all because we don't think like they do. We like freedom of speech and all of our rights. We (for the most part) take them for granted everyday. Yes Fanwriter even you. For if the Muslims had their way, who'se to say you wouldn't be killed simply because you spoke your mind. If the muslim extremists had their way right now we'd all probably be executed.

As far as the past goes... it may have possibly been justified then to prevent unnecessary bloodshed, but now it's just a vehicle for war. All you've proven in your writing is that the Koran justifies the killing of everyone who doesn't subscribe to it.

Now, if your idea about the only attack those who've attacked you, and the extremists only retaliated, then what did the US do to the Extremists to provoke it? (In referrence to 9/11.)

The way I see it is that most of the muslims typically are a peaceful people, it's just the irate extremists that we actually see running around shooting their mouths off and wishing us all to die.

Open warfare is already happening, but I worry about what happens if it becomes more intense... Will we see a true World War 3? And what of nuclear weapons... is it possible they may be invoked? Truely a frightening thought.

[Captain SpExtacular]

Umm...this may have been said already but Ill say it anyways >.<
This is going to back up what Nightmare had said about Islam.

Ok, so because I don't know allot about Islam then I'm waiting till I can get a hold of my counterpart who dose. Till then I say this about it. Islam itself is an old religion that never underwent reformation like Judaism and Christianity both did many times. In that sense then the religion itself is outdated and includes customs and/or traditions not smiled upon by the man of today (don't ask what they are, I'm still researching >.<). Now as far as attacking people by god's order (btw: Allah is the Arabic word for God, It's the same being) then as I have heard then there is a distorted version of the Koran(spelling correct) that was made by Al Qida or someone for that matter that is used to brainwash new recruits and suicide bombers to fight for their god with the promise of (70?) virgins in the afterlife. Another thought is that they are following it to seriously.

Now I really want to see this movie due to the reactions it's getting on forums lol. Gotta love the Dutch


Once I get all the things straitened out I'll change the first paragraph.

[Professor Fann]

I agreed with SpeX. Very nice conclusion. ai-Qaeda twisted the Koran to its own means, and as I said, you can only have the right to defend yourself and fight if necessary, if you were provoked first. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with the Koran and it definitely did not mention anything about deliberate and purposeful, intentional war against other people.

As for Nigthmare, I'm not sure how you think of things, but I was totally against your stance that Islam deliberately speaks out against non-believers. It's all because of twisted meanings that wars now happen. People don't tend to re-read and apply the peaceful and virtuous parts of the Koran into a harmonious and peaceful society, those radicals especially, and everyone around is only interested in the war-mongering distortions. And that's sad.

Wars are launched for different motives - I speak for the motive whereby your reasoning is to defend yourself against anyone who deliberately starts the first attack. I find that Nightmare has no stance in this matter as he has not said anything about or even explained why the Koran even said there was a need for war or fighting. Haven't you tried to think in this perspective analytical part? Forget about the war mongering parts. You should think why the Koran even made this mention more deeply so you can understand.

I've learned for 2 years the history of Islam under History class, so I know what I'm saying when I expouse this views about analyzing even deeper parts of religion here and there. And that applies to everything else. Not to say that I know everything, as I could be wrong, but having 2 years of History education, I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

For the record, someone said I take freedoms for granted. Sorry, but no. I am actually very glad with the current levels of freedom I am experiencing. Someone said that I take things for granted, and I know that that person is wrong in this aspect only.

I'm done here.

[Nightmare]

You don't always get all the facts in school FanWriter. I know I didn't when I learned about religion in school, so I'm not impressed by your school-backed facts on Islam.

And yes, I did look at why they said what they said in the Koran, don't insult my intellegence.

The important thing isn't WHY they said it, it's that they said it at all. I can tell you to kill Jews, and give you all kinds of reasons for killing Jews, but that doesn't mean it's okay that I told you to kill Jews, does it?

Sometimes the analytical approach isn't always the right one. It's the common sense approach. >.>;


I stand by my statement, the religion promotes violence. As I said before, it doesn't ONLY promote violence, but it does promote violence, and you can tell me how much of an idiot I am all you want, but that won't change what the Koran says.


I think that about covers it.

[Captain SpExtacular]

Yeah.
I'm to lazy so I'm giving up on my Islamic research. Nightmare covered stuff along with everyone.