MMOs In General

[Andrew]

So, I recently finished watching an anime about an MMO and it got me thinking about past, current, and future MMOs that we've had the opportunity to experience ourselves and I was wondering about what other people thought about MMOs and the features and implementations put into the games that they decide to play.

Which brings me to this post..

If you take the time to respond, I would like to see what you look for in an MMO. What you don't look for. What puts you off, drags you in, intrigues you, blows you away, disgusts you, etc.

A list of pros and cons, I should say.

I would appreciate the input as I plan on using anything/everything gathered here in a project of sorts that I would like to start working on.

NOTE
Do not use this thread to bash the MMO genre or particular MMOs. I know all of you hate WoW and have fetishes for FFXI and FFXIV, but keep it civil. Use MMOs as examples of what was done right/wrong in your lists.

Again, I appreciate your input.

[Deleted]

Apr 26, 2013 5:17:32 GMT -5 Andrew said:

If you take the time to respond, I would like to see what you look for in an MMO. What you don't look for. What puts you off, drags you in, intrigues you, blows you away, disgusts you, etc.

A list of pros and cons, I should say.

I would appreciate the input as I plan on using anything/everything gathered here in a project of sorts that I would like to start working on.

NOTE
Do not use this thread to bash the MMO genre or particular MMOs. I know all of you hate WoW and have fetishes for FFXI and FFXIV, but keep it civil. Use MMOs as examples of what was done right/wrong in your lists.

well we can't avoid bashing MMORPGs to some other RPG games, since that some other RPG games may be a good example or the ideal setting for the players.

next, what should developers consider in their MMORPGs is having a balanced game, story-wise and gameplay-wise, cause some MMORPGs have great quests and but repetitive gameplay, making the player grind their way through the game, while some MMORPGs have great gameplay but there are no main quests just a lot of mini quest to kill the time while leveling.

now, elaborating what "I" would like in terms of story, or how the game flows is that the quests are lenient, they wouldn't make you repeat the same dungeon 2 - 4 times just to progress further that no matter how good the gameplay is, it becomes boring later on. Backtracking isn't quite a problem in case there's like some sort of mini quest to get this and that.

then, elaborating what "I" would like in terms of gameplay is simple character controls, especially for games with a ton ass roster of skills for classes, cause the first thing I want in a game is to be able to relax, and remembering which skill is in your hotkey and pressing a lot of buttons is not relaxing for me. I'm really sorry but I have to mention Dragon Nest on this one, it's frustrating that you have to aim your attacks, press 1 - 5/ 6 - 0, then quickly going back to WASD, it really gets annoying especially in PVP that you have to keep mashing buttons just break free from a combo. Another thing is the PVP, what I want when battling other players is the variety of playing style, I would commend Ragnarok Online and MOBA games(LoL,DotA, HoN), for each player has their own build for their character, and different methods of fighting other characters, people think that some builds may be imbalanced, I think they just can't outwit the other player, cause some MMORPGs with PVP attempt to balance the game too much that all you have to rely on is how many hits you can land on the enemy, it just makes your armor and equipment just for display.

lastly, as a follow up to my ideal gameplay is that the progress of the character is both physically and technically seen, cause some MMORPGs would take around 12 levels before you actually see a change in your character's equipment, and what happens between 1 - 11? you get the same colored/textured equips with slightly different stats. I want an MMORPG that in the next level, I actually get something different, and when I mean different I don't want a palette/texture swap of my current items, I want a completely different thing, cause they serve like bragging rights, it's like a signal to the other player that says "I'm stronger than you."

In conclusion, all of these are just my opinion, whether you agree or disagree, it's not my problem. I just want to release what I think developers should consider in developing an MMO/MMORPG.

[Renegade]

*cough cough sword art online is great cough cough*

I've played a lot of MMOs, I personally enjoy WoW and never really got in to FF11 or FF14 so let's see what I like and don't like about stuff.

-What I like-
If a MMO can incorporate a story and the player feels like they are actually a part of that story where you feel the need to actually read what quest you are accepting or to not want to skip a cutscene.
I like an MMO that is accessible to a variety of types of players (pvp, pve, competitive, casual).
A game that seems worth the amount of money spent, if it is a free to play mmo I wouldn't expect supreme greatness, if I have to pay to play the game I expect the game to be worth my money and be able to put out new content in a reliable manner.
A variety of classes/jobs/races/talents/skills/weapon types is always a plus.
Character customization makes it so you can bring a uniqueness to something you created, many MMOs do this part right.
Paying money to change aesthetics about your character but not stats.
Being able to PvP or PvE whenever you wish(BGs/flashpoints/dungeons/world pvp/etc).
Special events(Holidays, invasions, etc).
A variety of different ways to level.
Customization of your HUD/Skill bars/etc.
Titles/mounts/achievements/pets for difficult obstacles.
The option to make a dungeon/raid/etc harder to get better loot.
Stupid checks in fights(don't stand in the fire or you die).
An emphasis on skill rather then gear(If you're better/more coordinated then the other guy, you should win, this shouldn't be taken to the extreme of if you have no gear and they have the best gear you should have very little chance of winning).
A mix of quality and quantity in quests.
An art style consistent with the game.
Voice acting done well.
Reporting/removing toxic players from a group for ruining your experience.

-What I don't like-
Boring quests that are repeated over and over and over with virtually no variety within them(many mmos have this problem).
Pay to win implementation(Dragon's Nest).
A time limit on playing the game where when it finishes you must wait 24 hours or pay additional money to keep playing(Spiral Knights).
Bad/lack of customer service(SWOTR in the start of the game).
Locked functions unless you paid for them(Tera did this before it went free to play).
No balancing of something that might be overpowered(Ragnarok Online).
A maximum amount of members allowed in a guild/clan/party/raid/linkshell (excluding something tuned to be a specific amount of players).
Real money Auction House(Diablo 3).
Ads inside the MMO.
Level restrictions on weapons(I liked what they did in Lineage 2, at any level you can equip any weapon but if it isn't meant for a character your level you have a much higher miss chance).
A lack of end game content.(many mmos do this by making the initial end game content too easy and players plow through it).
Expansions to a game that add very minimal features.
A toxic community(usually this isn't the games fault but the people who play it).
Gear checks in fights(You must be this "tall" to beat Patchwerk).
A focus on only quantity or only quality in quests(I don't want 200 crappy quests or 10 really good quests).
Enrage timers in boss fights(You haven't killed the boss in 5 minutes? Let's have the boss hit for triple the amount they normally do, this ties in with gear checks).

[Nightmare]

This is actually a very interesting topic. A lot of people play all kinds of MMORPGs but it can be hard to pinpoint what's good or bad about them sometimes.

Let me just start off by saying that I'm by no means an authority on MMORPGs. I've only really tried a handful, and have been roped in by a total of 3 in the 10 years or so I've been active online. This is mostly because I don't really care for the MMORPG genre, for a number of reasons (probably the biggest is that it's hard to find people to play MMOs with you, and due to the fact that people are stupid/unreliable I don't want to socialize with random people I meet in game, but most MMOs force you to collaborate to really accomplish anything.)

Now I've tinkered with a handful of MMORPGs that I didn't play for more than a couple hours (Adventure Quest, Asda Story, Maple Story, Ragnarok Online, Tales of Pirates, just to name a few) and I've been submersed in some more popular MMOs via friends that I've never actually done more than watch (World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy XIV, for example...)

But I'm going to talk a little bit about the MMORPGs I've played, what I liked about them, what I didn't like, and go into some detail on what I think would make a really good MMORPG...


RuneScape

Come on, admit it. Everyone is guilty of this one. At some point in time or another, everybody has at least played with RuneScape. Today, with our fancy advanced games and whatnot RuneScape is looked back on as an embarrassment to gaming and you likely look down on people that play it. But back when I was in Middleschool 10 years ago, RuneScape was the thing. Sure the gameplay was a little tedious and uninventive, and the graphics were pretty terrible compared to other games, but for what it was it was fun.

Probably one of the strong points of RuneScape was it's wide-open crafting system and it's skill leveling system in general. Everything, from mining to swordplay, improved as you did more of it. There was also a lot of equipment to choose from, though admittedly until you hit level 50-ish it's really just a small pool of equips that have different texture swaps.

One of the sorta unique things I liked about RuneScape was there were three main schools of battle: Warrior, Ranger, and Mage. And they had a sort of rock-paper-scissors dynamic. Warrior beat Ranger, Ranger beat Mage, and Mage beat Warrior. It was neat but thinking about it, it sorta severely limits PvP interactions (who's gonna wanna fight someone they know they're weak against?) PvP was never a thing I cared much about in MMOs though so that didn't bother me, but I can see how some people would think it was dumb.

Another nice thing was that PvP was actually controlled. You could only fight other players in the arenas and the wilderness. The Arenas seems pretty self explanatory, great place for people to meet up and duel. Wilderness wasn't so great. It was this huge expanse up north on the map that was essentially the lawless part of the game. The strongest monsters wandered up there, as well as some of the greatest treasures, and you could freely kill any players you encountered (back in my day anyway, I hear in recent years they've made some adjustments to how that works.) I didn't care much for this feature because while the area was incredibly tempting in terms of exploration, players 30 levels over you usually had no qualms with killing you on sight to steal your equipment (or just for fun, really...)

This brings me though to my biggest complaint about RuneScape which was the penalties for dying. A lot of MMOs penalize you some exp if you die, some teleport you away to a safe area and kind of screw up your progress... RuneScape has by far the most hard, brutal death penalties of any game I've ever played. You can work your ass off saving up tons of money to buy high-end equipment, or you can work your ass off leveling up your skills and collecting the materials to make them. If you die, however, you lose everything. Like literally everything you're carrying on you EXCEPT your three most valuable pieces of equipment. Which means if you were in a full suit of armor with a sword and shield you lose half your set if you die. What's worse is everything you don't keep drops, and anyone can just pick up your stuff (in the very very rare case of a nice person, they may pick up your stuff and message you and bring them to you if they see you get killed by something, but this is highly unlikely.) Also money counts as an item in your inventory, and that drops every time. So you shouldn't be carrying around any pocket change unless you're in town looking to buy something...

A couple other weak points were that it seemed there was actually TOO MANY skills to master. There were three different ones just for using your melee weapons, at least two or three for magic, and one or two for ranged weaponry. When it came to making a piece of armor you had to have so many things down it got ridiculous. You needed to have a decent level in some sort of combat to kill things to get drops you may need, you needed decent mining to mine the ores, you needed decent smelting to refine the ores into metal, and you needed a decent smithing level to beat the metal into the armor you wanted. If you were a ranger you needed to not only have all that to make the arrow heads but then you needed to level your wood cutting to chop down trees and craft them into arrow shafts. It got REALLY tedious sometimes.

The battle system overall was pretty unremarkable. The whole game was point and click. To battle all you had to do was select your weapon, select your attack style, and click a thing and then watch. Occasionally stop to use a healing item, and continue. Pretty boring overall. There were other little complaints, such as 2/3 of the world and most of the good equipment being restricted to paid members (which was only 5 bucks a month, I was a paid member for a period of time and it wasn't so bad.) One very nice advantage it had though was being able to select any server you want when you play, so it was really easy to meet up with friends who played.


Wonderland Online

This is a big one for me. It's probably the MMO that's had the most ZV members on it at a time ever, which was a lot of fun when we all still used to actually play it. Now it's usually just me and sometimes Ztrl or Ed or Cem, so it's gotten a little boring.

Wonderland Online stood out to me because of it's turn-based battle system, despite being an MMORPG. I'd never seen that before, and it reminded me a lot of oldschool games so I was impressed. The game actually is a whole lot of fun, but it too can be incredibly tedious. Story-wise there's not much to take away from it unless you really like it's silly, incredibly engrish dialogue.

Character customization is a little lacking in some regards. You don't really customize a character when you make one, you pick from a list of characters and you recolor them (you get RGB sliders for their hair, skin, eyes, and underwear...) Body equipment encompasses the entirety of the torso and legs too so outfits often don't get too creative.

Unfortunately it's server system wasn't as great as RuneScape's though. You have a list of servers to choose from, and once you pick your character is bound to that server for good. Each server does have multiple branches you can freely switch between though (usually 2 to 4 branches, but more popular servers have as many as 7.) You're allowed 2 characters per server, which is nice, but honestly due to the nature of the game you'll wanna dual log a lot to play multiple characters at once, and you can't log into the same account more than once at a time so making multiple characters on an account is pretty pointless.

Another, much better way Wonderland differs from RuneScape is it's death penalties are pretty average. If you die; you lose some exp (about 1% give or take a little) and get right back up (though if you're overkilled you may respawn back at the starter point in the game.)

Unlike in RuneScape where you have a ton of skills you can master, Wonderland has you pick an element (Wind, Water, Earth, or Fire) at character creation, and this kind of seals the deal on what kind of things you learn as you level. Each element has a skill tree with three routes: One tailored toward melee combat, one toward magical combat, and one toward support abilities. You have 6 stats (8 counting HP and SP) and when you level up, you're given three points to allocate toward your 6 stats to help increase them. This is nice because it gives you a lot of power over how your character's stats are built, but I've always disliked this way of handling stats though, because it's so easy to screw up a character forever if you're brand new to the game and have no idea how to best build your characters.

It had a number of other flaws. "Pets" earned in game were essentially the only non player help you had in battle, and they could very easily lose affinity with you and leave you in the middle of battle, taking any equipment you had on them with them. Most of the most useful items in the game were also reserved for the cash shop, and compared to any other MMO I've played with a cash shop, Wonderland Online had one of the most out of line ones I'd ever seen. ESPECIALLY since the best items expired after a month, so you had to KEEP buying them... It's crafting system was also a mess. It had two different kinds of crafting: Construction and Alchemy. Construction was just tedious; you had to make tools constantly, you had to collect materials for everything you made (pretty normal) but when actually constructing things, it could take you as long as an hour to finish making it. I built a real boat so I could explore other areas beyond the island you start on and between all the materials, making all the parts, making fuel, and constructing the actual boat, it literally took me 20 hours. Alchemy was a whole 'nother mess in itself. It was nearly impossible to learn, and heavily luck-based. You could spend hours and hundreds of thousands of in-game dollars (and probably some real money too) getting your hands on some materials to alchemitize a piece of equipemnt and when you actually do it, you could get something completely different, or it could fail and you just wasted everything.

It's biggest flaw though was probably just leveling. Leveling took forever. The game's level cap is 200. Technically more like 299 because once you get to level 100-ish you do a "rebirth" sidequest that knocks you back 99 levels but makes your stats all skyrocket. But seriously, it becomes an ordeal to level once you hit 30, and it becomes nearly impossible through normal means after 50. The game seems to know this, one of the first items you get in the game is a remote control you can customize to essentially have you walk around an area, autobattle, and eat recovery items when HP is low.

That's right, the game flat out has a botting feature.

You pretty much have to do this to level because you'll kill yourself sitting there actually playing out all those battles endlessly. And you have to start abusing exploits in the game's exp calculation to level once you reach a certain point because it becomes so hard to by normal means after a certain point. And the game encourages this (mostly because said exploit more or less involved buying a specific item from the cash shop.) I have five characters in Wonderland Online from the time I was obsessed. They're level 180, 153, 137, 113, and 120. And I'll tell you probably 80% of their actual leveling was done while I was asleep or at school or something over the course of weeks using the botting feature.

The game had it's strong points though. The world was huge, there was lots of quests, lots of stuff to collect, the battle system was fun and unique, and for a 2-D game it was really beautiful visually.


DC Universe Online

This is the only other MMORPG I can really speak about. Honestly in a lot of the key ways it doesn't differ much from RuneScape or Wonderland Online. It's battle system is nice, it's real time and you execute button combinations to perform moves (as well as setting up some hot keys for skills and items.) It's point allocation system is similar to Wonderland's, but has the distinct advantage of being able to easily reset skill points if you change your mind later.

Character customization is definitely a strong point for DCU. Though it could stand to have more content (all but maybe two hairstyles in the entire game are pretty crappy, and though understandable given the game's base, there's few clothing articles that aren't just variations of spandex.) You do get to choose a lot in terms of your character though: Legs, Arms, lower body, upper body, back, face, head, hair, skin, and colors for all of the above. Not to mention your fighting style, super powers, movement styles, and even mentors (which effect starting positions, starting renown, and starting missions.)

My favorite feature of all for DCU though is probably the style system. Styles are essentially the appearance of equipment you get in game. And while every piece of equipment comes with a style (though not necessarily unique) it doesn't HAVE to effect your in-game appearance. You have a style tab in your inventory that lets you choose the appearance of every part of your character, as well as recolor them (GRANTED every piece of equipment shares the same color palette, and you only get 3 colors...) And just by putting on a piece of equipment with a specific style, you unlock that style. Forever. Even if you sell the piece of equipment afterwords.

This means that you can wear any equipment you want, and you can choose to display the appearance of any piece of equipment that you've ever owned. That's fricken awesome. That blew my mind when I first saw it. A game that actually addressed the issue of "Do I wanna look good or do I want functional equipment?" Every game ever should have this.

DCU does have a cash shop and lots of DLC and extra paid features, but really everything you buy from them is reasonable, and versatile, giving it a vast advantage over Wonderland Online's. You don't really need to buy from the cash shop though, all the stuff in it is pretty much just styles to make you look pretty. the DLC makes it worth your while if you do buy it; adding new powers, new features, new areas, all that fun stuff. And all for much cheaper than buying a WoW or FFXI expansion, without the monthly fee.



What I would like to see in an MMO


Now that I've blabbed about what I like/hate about MMORPGs I've played, let me just go over a little list of things I think would be ideal for an MMORPG...

Fees- No monthly fees. I don't like being charged for anything more than once. If you want me to buy an expansion once in awhile, fine. That's one thing. But really I'm not willing to pay any more than 5 dollars a month for a game, which is why RuneScape was the only one to sucker me like that. If your MMO NEEDS to collect monthly fees to maintain itself, then make it cheap. 10 bucks a month is out of line when you already have to pay 30-40 bucks to purchase the game, and have to shell out about that much every time you want an expansion as they come out...

Cash shops- I feel like cash shops are sort of a staple of MMORPGs, so I don't see a problem with having them, but make them reasonable! Don't charge somebody 20 dollars for a sword, then force them to spend another 50-60 bucks or so buying stuff to upgrade it to a condition where it's actually useful (I'm looking at you, Wonderland...) or make them shell out 5-10 dollars for a useful item they can only use once, or can only use for a month (looking at you again, Wonderland.....) OR do something crazy and stupid like have multiple key important things in the game reliant on cash shop items (WONDERLAND SERIOUSLY.) If you're going to have a cash shop, you should stock it like you're appreciating players for playing your game and being dedicated enough to buy stuff to improve their gaming experience because they enjoy playing your game so much. DCU is good about this; their stuff is cheap, it effects every single character you have, it's (in almost all cases) good forever, and overall they make it worth your money.

PvP- PvP is an important feature in any MMO. Lots of people like fighting other players. But some don't. So PvP needs to be fun but also well controlled. Usually games have you pick a server where you either can fight people indiscriminately (PvP servers) or a server where you can't (PvE servers.) While I feel this is pretty okay (DCU is nice in that you can still challenge people to duels on PvE servers, they just have to consent, and you can change to PvP if you really wanted to without much hassle.) RuneScape handled this pretty poorly where PvP was illegal everywhere except in arenas (which are limited to paid members) and the wilderness, where no rules apply. In actuality I feel like Wonderland Online came the closest to getting this right. Wonderland has a switch in your profile controlling whether or not you allow PvP. And if you do, you can simply be clicked on and a battle can be engaged. If it's off though, nobody can attack you out of nowhere.

Character Customization- This is one of the biggest things for me, since I like to recreate my own characters and have my own unique appearance when I play MMORPGs. I could never get into something like FFXI where you had just a handful of options to choose from. I need builds, hair styles (some long ones please), maybe some faces to choose from, also colors! Preferably color sliders, let me make the colors how I want them exactly! And give us some good choices for starting clothes.

Equipment- Speaking of clothes. I feel like your equipment doesn't NEED to effect your appearance, contrary to standard MMO procedure. A very common problem with MMORPGs is that you have to make the call as to whether you want your character to look good, or if you want them to have top of the line equipment... As I said, DCU handled this marvelously by having a style tab where you can customize your appearance based on any piece of clothing you've owned. It handled weapons similarly (though you had to be armed with a weapon of a similar type, so you could only use sword styles if you were wielding a sword, etc.) Even if that's too involved, there are other ways around this problem. Wonderland Online had a ludicrously expensive cash shop item that merged two items together (the appearance of one and the stats of the other...) which is OKAY I guess but not preferrable... Though I've never played it, Ed has told me Terraria's equipment system is nice in that you can equip two pieces of clothing of the same type, and take the stats from one and the appearance of another. This I feel is a nice, simple, and balanced way of handling the equipment issue.

Character builds- An important aspect of combat. I feel like your characters should have a lot of choices for how to build your characters. RuneScape did this by having three main classes and letting you freely do whatever you wanted. Wonderland had four fixed elemental schools and let you go down three sub-paths of each based on how you built your stats. DCU has yo pick a super power and from there your specialties and abilities are based on how you allocate your stats, similar to Wonderland. I feel like the ideal MMORPG should have some sort of class system or elemental property that effects your general theme, but you should have more freedom as to how you expand upon it. I'm not a fan of the skillpoint system personally, where you get skill points on level up and you put them where you want. It's way too easy to mess up a character on your first time playing. DCU was excusable because you could reset your stats via in game money pretty easily, but even that I didn't find ideal. It's hard to say what the best would be. I think RuneScape probably had it best where you can feeely practice any class you want, and new abilities in those classes were unlocked just based on how much experience you have using it. I think FFXI had a similar way of doing things there and that would probably be best. Don't lock players in with decisions they made when they were young and dumb, and let them try new things and explore new options.

Combat- Speaking of all this battle nonsense, combat is important. Really this is kind of a matter of preference though. I feel like real time battles like World of Warcraft or Ragnarok Online or DCU offer the most versatility, but I think my favorite was probably Wonderland Online. Just because it's turn-based battle system was really easy, it was fun, it didn't force you to do anything too complicated and gave you time to find all your skills (putting less emphasis on hotkey fumbling.) If you do a real-time battle system though, it's gotta be fun and keep you engaged. DCU does good with this, there's not as much mindless button mashing because to do effective damage you have to string together combos (which usually is just combinations of taps and holds, so it's simple but still engaging.) I also feel like drops should be fairer, given to everyone who participated in the battle rather than a lottery system... But I guess in a real time MMO like DCU you can just walk up to a battle in progress and help a little toward the end. Wonderland gave drops to everyone who fought in the battle, but Wonderland had a turn-based battle system and you kind of had to be with the party at the time the battle was engaged to participate effectively.

Leveling- Whoah nelly can this be a can of worms sometimes in MMORPGs. I feel like it only makes sense for leveling to get tougher as you get higher up, but keep it in control seriously (looking at you again, Wonderland...) You don't need a really high level cap and make each level 10 times harder to get than the last. I feel like somewhere between 50 and 100 is a fair permanent level cap. And I think that while it should get harder to level, it shouldn't be ridiculously hard... After all you're fighting tougher enemies and doing harder quests, why should it be 10 times harder to get a level when you're level 20 when you're already fighting things way way tougher than when you were say level 10? If you're worried about people hitting the cap too soon, just give them lots of endgame stuff to do. DCU has a measely level 30 level cap, but hitting level 30 isn't the end of the game, it's a whole new beginning. Sometimes I feel like high level caps and impossible leveling is just a lazy way to trick people into playing by taking advantage of completionist instincts instead of coming up with new things to do to keep people engaged.

Crafting- Crafting is a must for any MMORPG. But there's not much that needs to be said. Don't waste people's time by forcing them to wait an eternity to make something they HAVE all the tools and materials to make (Wonderland...) DON'T make it randomized to waste people's time and money (WONDERLAND....) and if you're going to force people to level skills to craft, keep it to a few core crafting skills or just ONE crafting skill and don't overwhelm people with a long, tedious process (Runescape...) Crafting should be about collecting/making the right tools, and going on a journey to collect the materials you need. The fun in crafting is not only making new things that can help you (be it equipment, vehicles, or whatever) but also in exploration. Don't make crafting a tedious process, make it exciting.

Solo play- This seriously needs to be a stronger thing in a lot of MMOs... I realize that "Massively Multiplayer" is in the genre but man I don't always wanna play with other people. Sometimes I like the game and just wanna play by myself and not be forced to deal with idiots online. It's bad enough more often than not when buying new equipment or specific kinds of items I have to deal with players selling them, I don't wanna have to pray that they're reliable in combat as well only to have us all get killed by some asshole getting up to take a dump in the middle of a boss fight. Wonderland is a notable example of handling this terribly; the game is so hard after a certain point that you literally cannot do anything without at least one other person of your level/skill to back you up. Hence why I said earlier that you'll wanna make multiple characters and dual log a lot; half the time I would travel in a party with me and two or three clones of me (thankfully the game's turn-based battle system made this very accommodating, but still...) DCU handles it rather well I think, most quests are easily doable and most bosses easily beatable so long as you're the right level, and I'm pretty sure dungeons are instanced and scale in difficulty depending on how many people are in your group. This is pretty much idea, I think. Because then you can solo missions if you don't want to deal with people, but you can party together if you want without it making the game too easy. This isn't to say there shouldn't be missions that DO require a lot of people, like raids and stuff (DCU has stuff like that) but I feel like you shouldn't HAVE to be in a group EVERY TIME you play.



And uhh. I can't really think of anything else totally important. I've written more than enough I think. That pretty well covers what I like about MMORPGs, what I don't like, and what I think the ideal MMO should contain.

Hope someone actually bothers to read all this. I'd probably give it a tl;dr myself. lawl

[Sorrum]

I'm not an MMO person, but my experiences are as follows.

Runescape was my first MMO at 8 years old. I liked it because I could do a lot of different things, from fighting to mining iron to casting spells to making a pot. It had way too much stuff to do in one day and I thought that was neat. I could always come back and do something new, and luckily the game was big enough back then that websites existed to tell me how to do all of that stuff.
Nobody talked much though, unless they were selling items. The game is pretty much a solo effort unless you're doing a quest, PvP(PKing), or selling items(which is completely different now.) The only way to make money and buy better equipment/materials though was to PK, which I was never any good at. A buddy of mine is a professional PKer, and he has made an attrocious amount of in game gold, way more then any crafting ability could give you in the same amount of time.

I kinda played Neopets for a while if that counts, but I lost interest in its kiddy like appearances. I think I stopped coming in around 10.

AdventureQuest was similar, it didn't have any p2p interaction that I can recall either. I bought the guardian expansion, but man what a waste that was. I got shinier armor and a lusterless sword that made me feel like a tool.

I tried playing Wonderland Online for a bit, but the fact that I was going to have to spend money on leveling once I hit 30 dropped the whole "wanting to play" thing. I logged on a little bit, collected pets, goofed around, did quests, got married, explored with Nightmare a few times, but I couldn't do much on my own without breaking out my wallet. I never did, so I left it behind.

I was playing Phantasy Star Online for a while there. It was fun, actually. Just everyone I played with was 50+ levels higher then me, so while I could be trying to fight something that was stronger, they'd just one hit it. Melee weapons were lame and always meant you were going to get slapped for using one. Ranged weapons were FAR superior. Never messed with the magic stuff though. I stopped playing because I stopped working on my computer for some reason one day.

There's a game called Shin Megami Tensei online that I played a while ago. I could never really get into it.

I played a game called Rumble Fighter for a few years. It was addictive, but MAN get your wallet out. Earning things in game meant playing 30+ games just to get close to having enough. Levels earned don't matter, it's highly competitive, the community is THE WORST I HAVE EVER SEEN. Playing the game was just a time waster, it wasn't even fun after one point.

I've barely played WoW, but it looks very eh to me.

All in all I'd say the only thing I'm looking for in an MMO is a decent community, level challenges in team efforts, pvp, and everything not costing ludicrous amounts of money, or actual money. I know you people got to make a living, but holy crap.

[Ruinaru]

My main thing with MMOs is that they have to make me want to come back and keep playing. It's a divisive issue, but one of the biggest things that does this for me is the effort-reward ratio.

Final Fantasy XI kept me playing for years because it took a TON of time and effort to get anything accomplished. There wasn't a lot you could do solo, and that led to a strong, united community. No, not everyone liked it, no it didn't have the largest subscriber base, but the people who played it, and I mean really played it, will never forget the time they spent in that world, because of the people they met, and played with, and made connections with.

I understand that the end goal is money, and that in order to reach that goal more effectively, publishers have to make the games appeal to a wider audience. But I feel like that's ruining what made the genre so great to begin with. It was a niche, something a lot of people couldn't get into. I'm not saying I love mindless grinding, but there's something to be said about the feeling of accomplishment one gets alongside it. That's one of the reasons I love Monster Hunter so much. It beats me in the balls with low drop rates and ridiculous material requirements, but when you finally finish that armor set you've been working on, it's such a great feeling.

But MMOs are moving away from that these days, in order to appease the masses who aren't willing to put in that time and reap the satisfaction that comes with it. Maybe that's a good thing, people don't really need to be spending as much time in the game as some do. But it's still sad, in my opinion, that I'll likely never play a game that enthralled me like FFXI did in its prime.

[Andrew]

Crys said:

Okay, Para told me to do this so here I am.

To start out I have played a few MMOs but the main one has been WoW. I have not found one to suck me in like WoW had though it could be I am a big fan of Warcraft even from the first Warcraft game, which you had to start up from the DOS. But I guess I will start with things I would like to see in MMOs.

Customization
If an MMO could take the customization of a character like the way the Elder Scrolls have done I would be happy. Also having a color bar or grid for the hair would be good. Changing body type, weight, height, and the age look of the skin would be a nice add on but that I could live more without. Beyond that it comes to the gear. WoW has recently fixed this with the Transmog that is offered. You can take old gear and transmog that gear over the currently good gear to get the look of the old. People have put together sets and if you have your favorite set you can keep that look if you pay gold. There are times that having just a color change in the armor is not a bad thing, especially when you are trying to put a set together that you like the design but need a certain color.

Story
Holy cow is this a big one for me. I enjoy a good story in a game and sometimes that is exactly why I play them. I like both Linear and Open World concepts. In all honesty I want to know why heroes (us) are needed and why they are needed now instead of, lets say, before whatever we are needed for happened. What caused the need to arise; was it the end of the world, a brutal war, a need for a race/faction to survive, or just because that person right there stole your toast? I want to know that and then the journey your person takes from a newbie to oh god awesome person.

Stats
This has been an on-again-off-again subject for me. There are some games that I would enjoy getting a set amount of points per level to put into your person and level them up that way. Lets say you are warrior type you would put your points in strength, stamina, and then whatever could help you crit (has been called a few different things between games, soooo. Yeah.). You would completely by pass the intellect stat for the warrior but you could also put all three of your points in strength if you wanted too. Then on the other hand I enjoy as you level you automatically get those points depending on your class and your points are given to you as a talent or to pick/upgrade skills. WoW does this with the talents, and then on the flip side, Scarlet Blade does the pick skills and then put more points into that skill to upgrade it and make it better.

Fighting
Okay for this there are a few different types depending on how the game is set up. WoW has the set up of a click a mob and then either click or hot key your abilities for the fight and then you can move around. You can get out of some things like a ground AOE that has an area limit or an AOE that the boss lets out that damages people within a certain amount of yards from him. This can be fun but at the same time can be mind numbing. Also you can get people who tunnel vision on their cool downs and not pay attention to the fight. Also if someone attacks you it doesn't matter if you try to dodge that mage's frostbolt it will arc towards you if it is going to hit, no moving your character to dodge the attack. Terra on the other hand gives you the ability to dodge range attacks if you move out of the way of that magic spell shooting towards your face. You can still use your abilities but this makes the player more involved and can give them better control of the damage they receive. Both are enjoyable.

Crafting
When I'm not out fighting everything I see I enjoy doing some crafting stuff. Now I don't know much about other games as I never got into them to know in depth about them so WoW is what i'll be basing most of this off. I do know a little about TOR but I had only played it in Beta and not long enough as I was playing off of Para's computer. I enjoy crafting and the special items or abilities you can gain from them. In WoW I have one of every crafting class to try them all. Of course there are some that are better than others, easier to level, or the ones to make a lot of gold off of but it's a good side thing to do when you just happen to be tired of the killing. From what I've seen Scarlet Blade does not offer crafting but for that game it's not really missed, or it hasn't from my point of view. Maybe when I get higher in level and more game time under my belt this may change but right now it's good. TOR, in the beta, had a few really strong crafting and weak ones that no one went after. I believe they balanced this, but again I didn't play much after Beta and I'll explain more on why later.

Side Objectives
Some games lacked this and for WoW they lacked it a lot. They have tried to fix this with Mists but it just hasn't been enough yet. There are the normal things like fishing and cooking in WoW and with Mists they added a farm you can do and they also added Pet battles which is just like Pokemon (Gotta catch 'em all!). Before that it was only Achievements but even then some of them can take days to complete, and lets face it, most people want the achievement now and don't want to wait for it. Not only that the achievement system does nothing but show off an e-peen of a player. You do randomly get pets, mounts, titles, or an item but most of the time it's nothing but a little "ding" to your list. Something more to do on the side would be nice, but it's hard to please everyone so what WoW has done has been good.

PVP
I will say this now. I am not big into PVP. I do it from time to time but I am also a person who rages, yells, pouts (?), and gets annoyed in PvP. Para will attest to this and hates it when I do PvP. I do get some enjoyment out of it even if it makes me mad because that is just part of the game. I do play on a PvE realm so I chose when I want to PvP and in a way, how it is done. I believe WoW has done a good job at this and they are still trying new things when it comes to PvP. They give us battlegrounds, arenas, and certain areas where you can flag yourself for world PvP objectives. But then there are a few areas where it is considered neutral towns, or what they call sanctuaries, where PvP is not allowed and guards will attack you on site if you attack another player. Also the capitals are safe areas for that faction and the first beginning area of each race. That being said, I enjoy PvP on my terms and then the battlegrounds because most of them are different from each other in some ways.

Those are some things I like and some quirks that I don't like now onto the things I dislike.

Pay to Win
In all honesty depending on the quality of the game I have no qualms for paying a sub to play. If a game can pull me in then yes I'll pay you to play, but if you make a Free-To-Play (FTP) and make the person pay you to beat the other gamers, then I have a problem. TOR became this problem for me. Honesty the game didn't suck me in like some others have but when I heard it became FTP I decided to give it another shot and see if I could get back into playing it. Well I did but they had tiers within the game. You had FTP tier, one for people who had paid but are now FTP, and subs. I'm sure there was another in there but I don't remember. Well the FTP had only 2 character slots open, three races per faction out of like six, you got no rest (double XP for when you logged out), and some quest rewards were locked to you until you subed, no bank access, reduced XP gain, and there are a few others but that's the jest of it. I could handle the first three but when you then start denying the ability to get QUEST rewards that went a little above what I liked. When I found that out I actually stopped playing and got rid of the game again. I actually will refuse to go back to the game because of that. If you want to restrict your FTP players that much you might as well keep the sub and lower the monthly price or something. Scarlet Blade is a game that is FTP and has really no big restrictions. You can buy items from a store but it is mostly cosmetics or awesome looking bikes.

Questing
Okay this section could have been either category but I have enough in the like section. I want an MMO to have the ability to solo the quests. WoW actually does a good job and you can pretty much play solo all the way to cap level. If you want a group setting you can queue for a dungeon and run that with a group of five. There are also some quests out in the world, which can be skip-able, that are labeled group quests. A few of these appeared in the Wrath expansion but I haven't seen them much since as they were not as big of a hit as Blizzard wanted them to be. On the flip side you can do all of these solo quests with a group and nothing big happens. You get a slight cut in XP when you kill mobs because it is split among the group but that's about it. So it becomes your choice, solo or group. I played a little of FFXI and didn't get very far because of the fact that you -HAD- to have a group to quest after like level five, so just like TOR it didn't get played for very long and I didn't get to experience much of the game. It had seemed fun but that one aspect shut me down from the game.

Storage
Holy crap Para will freak out about this and can give you page long rants about not enough storage. Honestly I half agree with him. Vanity items are big in WoW and Para has a collection problem with them, and sometimes so do I (depending on the item). WoW has tried to help with this by opening Void storage up to players where they can store items but for big collection freaks, like Para, it is not enough. They offer bigger bags, but again not enough. There are just to many items to collect in the game to be able to store it all and that can make collection players very sad (Para will be giving the sad face now). I am only thinking of vanity items though. There are a TON of people who collect armor because you need to have that armor to transmog in WoW. You can't have owned that piece of armor at one time, sold it, and still use it to transform your armor. No, you have to keep that item on you to be able to transmog over any gear you upgrade. I'll give WoW credit for trying to fix this problem but they are still not at the point to make the players happy.

Okay after this novel I think that's about it. I'm sure there is more but I'm slightly tired of writing this down. So be happy Para I did what you asked me to do.
*Glares at Para.*

[Swim]

Well I should start by stating that when I play MMOs I tend to focus more on the PvP aspect of the game, and this probably influences my preferences, playstyle, and likes and dislikes quite heavily. The reason being is simply that I cannot stand scripted fights where I have to memorize an optimal rotation of abilities, and do the required dance so as to not die. And even when I do it right, someone in my raid could screw up and we all wipe. If I want to play a game that is PvE I would much prefer it not be an MMO, I'll pick up some sort of action platformer to satisfy my needs. That said, I do enjoy competing against living, thinking opponents in PvP, both objective based play and straight up combat.

The MMOs I have played are Runescape, WoW and Star Wars the Old Republic. Oh, and Wonderland for a brief period of time.

One thing that I look for is class distinction. Classes can have overlapping roles, but they need to have their own unique feel. Even better if classes have multiple specialization trees and each of them has their own way to play. It really makes me feel more attached to my character. That said, I hate cookie cutter builds. As much as possible, I like to have the ability to customize my character and tailor them to what specific strengths and give them the abilities I most enjoy. When every mage class plays the exact same way I tend to lose interest, I like to have a few surprises that aren't readily apparent just by looking at me.
Along with this, I like to be able to wear whatever gear I want to wear. Everyone likes it when their character looks badass, is sporting cool armor. But sometimes the next tier of gear comes out and you don't like the look as much as you do what you're currently wearing. Or maybe you don't want to be wearing the exact same armor as every other max level character in your class. That's why I really like SWTOR's modifiable armor system, the armor itself is purely aesthetic, the mods are where the stat bonuses are. After reading Nightmare's post it looks like DCU has something similar. You rip out the mods and slot them in the armor of your choosing, and you can play end game level content in whatever gear you like. Really helps make the character your own. Also Tony doesn't need to wear a tutu for the stat bonus, he can rip out the mods and put them into some good looking armor.

Fun questing. I'm going to try not to bash WoW too much, but the leveling process was not very entertaining imo, especially if you've made alts and you're playing through content multiple times. I hate the very idea that "the game doesn't truly begin until you reach max level." This is stupid, because the climb to max level becomes an arduous chore, and of course you can't skip all the way there because leveling is how you learn the ins and outs of all of your class abilities. People who buy accounts, or level more quickly through certain experience boosters get to end game and are terrible at playing their class. I think the questing aspect is something that SWTOR did very well, because each of the 8 classes have a unique story to make each alt you run seem like a fresh experience, and because the quests are voiced and story relevant, it doesn't boil down to "kill 30 guys" like in other MMOs. In fact, the only times you get quests to kill a certain number of guys are when you get bonus credit for killing enemies in the scope of your main quest, completely optional but a way to gain more experience. I think its a great breath of fresh air to an outdated game design.
Along with this, I want the game's story to be about me. I know that it can be hard to make a player feel this way when there are millions of other people playing the game, but at least make it focused on the players. SWTOR is very much about your character's story, about the Bounty Hunter or Jedi Knight who impacted the fate of the galaxy, whereas in WoW I frequently felt like an accessory to the more important 'lore' character's story. I killed Onexia and the Litch King, but buttheads like Varien and Tirion get to have their names in the history books and statues erected. I did the work, but I feel like I'm just a part of their story. And that is partially why I find PvE in MMOs so un-engaging, I'd rather go play something where I'm the sole hero and actually get credit for my accomplishments.

As far as subscriptions go, I don't mind all that much. Its the same as having to pay for Xbox live or some similar service, in my opinion at least. The money goes to keeping the servers up and for the development of more content. And most paid MMOs cost no more than $15 a month, which most people make in 2 hours of work. If I get more than 2 hours of enjoyment from an MMO per month I consider the money to be a non issue. That said, I hate to see companies getting greedy about the money and nickle and diming players for every little thing like server transfers. Blizzard is already sitting on a mountain of gold, they could easily lower the subscription, waive character maintenance fees and still make a tidy profit. You can't exactly fault a business for wanting to make money, but if you're paying for a subscription you shouldn't have to pay additional cost for simple conveniences. SWTOR is really taking heat for this since introducing the Free to Play option.

Special world events are huge for MMOs that have them. They help the game by bringing back subscribers, and the subscribers enjoy it when new and exciting content comes out that gives a break from the daily grind they may be doing. WoW does this very well in the form of annual events, you can get unique gear, titles and achievements - and if you didn't complete them there is always next year. SWTOR periodically has world events which do not reoccur annually, and this unpredictability imo makes things even more exciting, as players race to complete the content before others. Getting to access content before people have put out guides, mapped and cataloged everything is really fun, no one really knows what to expect and going into uncharted territory really breaks the monotonous grind that MMOs are sometimes known for.
Content Development. Good MMOs have to have enough activities to keep players occupied and having fun. Most MMOs settle for keeping players occupied with daily quests that you need to complete in order to save up enough commendations/badges/tokens to buy the higher level raiding equipment so that you can actually access the end game PvE content. But this quickly becomes a chore/secondary job. I don't want to do it, but if I want to play the game I have to. Its an arbitrary time suck, designed to keep players from getting through content too quickly. It gives the developers more time to sit on their butts instead of working to put out fresh content in a timely manner. Additionally, if you have to toil a month before you're awarded your gear, that's another month of subscription fees you get to take from every player who is paying for your game. Its lazy, its sleezy and I hate it. I would rather just beat all of the content available in my current patch and wait patiently for the next, this way I could devote the extra time to other games, socializing with friends/family, school work, etc. MMOs shouldn't have to be a time suck, but a great many MMOs will settle for pooping out generic daily quests that force players to log in every day for months. This is why I tend to PvP, because I earn my tokens/badges through playing games. Every PvP match is different, and so I don't mind as much if I have to log in and play a game that I already enjoy to access my gear.

PVP. Like many others here, my first experience with MMOs was Runescape, and I think it heavily influenced my train of thought that progressing through the game and getting better gear is for the purpose of beating other players. In Runescape you'd level all of your many, many skills independently from one another, so as Nightmare said, it is possible to build yourself a very specialized character. And I was all about finding the optimal build that would give me any sort of advantage (spent so long grinding those giants so I could bury their bones for Prayer levels...) and it was all to get ready for the Wilderness. As Nightmare said, unless there was a specific agreement to duel between players, the Wilderness was the only place you could attack other players. And since the Wilderness contained some of the highest level monsters, as well as rare minerals and other resources, it seemed like the closest thing to Endgame that Runescape had to offer. Placing all the best rewards in an area that encouraged players to kill one another put the idea in my head that MMOs were basically to kill one another, that was the end goal and I should customize and tailor my characters for that purpose. I could not understand why anyone, (like my friend's girlfriend) would want to play the game and just farm vegetables. Did not make sense. Every other skill seemed tailored towards combat. You leveled fishing and cooking so that you could make consumable food that would heal you more, you leveled mining and smelting so that you could create the best armor for yourself. And you did all of this so that you would have a better chance to kill the other player. This was because of Runescape's death system, which caused the character to drop everything in their inventory and all of their gear (save the 1-4 items you were carrying which the game deemed most valuable). If you died while wearing the best armor in the game your killer would be very, very happy, as you'd be able to loot their corpse. If you were returning from the deep Wilderness carrying high quality ore, or loot from a boss you've slain... well you didn't want to be killed. The stakes were quite high. Imo, this is how the game was supposed to be played, and this train of thought carried into my time with WoW and SWTOR. While the death penalties are not quite so extreme, I still got a rush from engaging other players in combat. Its thrilling, not knowing whether you'll win or lose. Getting the jump on a character, or having another person surprise you while questing makes the game dynamic and interesting. Plus, if players are playing as characters in warring factions it makes sense to kill your enemy when you see them, you don't run along side by side completing quests. Now I understand that this isn't for everyone, but that's why you have seperate servers for those people who don't like to be attacked unexpectedly. But in my opinion, world pvp makes a player more aware of their surroundings, makes you use your abilities more creatively, makes use of the environment (by hiding behind trees, attacking from higher ground) and just makes the game far more exciting than some enemy NPC where you sit hacking at one another till he drops dead. And unlike PvE where players have to memorize the optimal damage rotation and just repeat that until the boss dies, PvP puts you in situations which require you to use every ability in your arsenal. Makes you think on your feet, and you get a better feel for your character and how to utilize their abilities to their fullest extent.

Combat. I really, really do not like standing next to an enemy and swinging my sword at him with no reaction. I want to see the sword hit him, I want to see damage has been inflicted (either some blood, bruising, damage to his armor). But often times its just swinging and swinging over and over and it feels mindless. That's why I really like how in SWTOR if two characters are having a lightsaber duel, their sabers will actually clash and block each other. Its so simple, but it makes the game so much more immersive for me.
On that note, I tend to not like gigantic boss enemies. I understand the desire to fight something massive in scale, but nothing makes me feel stupider than hacking at some giant's toenail until he falls 10 minutes later... Your character should not be able to parry a swing from some behemoth that could crush you underfoot, you cannot parry a swing like that. Or if they've got a hammer bigger than you are, you shouldn't be able to block it. Megaman isn't an MMO, but if you think back to the most memorable enemies, they weren't the giant things built into the background, they were the other Megamen. Bass, the MMZ Guardians, enemies which provided a sort of foil or counter to your character are far more compelling and enjoyable boss fights than a random mechanaloid or even most mavericks.

Crafting. Crafting is sort of a niche thing for me. I like to be able to create your own gear, adds a higher level of customization and really helps if a certain piece isn't dropping. I also like it when crafting gives your character some slight boost at the endgame, nothing too extreme but a nice reward for all the hard work you spend leveling your crafting skill. But this brings me to a very important topic.
Stat Importance. As Renegade said, gear should not be as much a factor as it often is. Many times, if you don't have a certain tier of gear it is impossible to defeat a boss, and even if you are a good player people will drop you from groups if your gear isn't up to par. Imo, gear should give you a slight buff, but not bar you from content. Especially from the initial raid in a given tier, you should be able to jump into the first round of raiding content as soon as you've finished leveling. Ideally you would raid the first round and graduate to the second after you've obtained 2-3 new pieces, you shouldn't need to obtain the best in every slot before entering the next content tier. Again, this just serves to artificially prolong content and milk more money and play time from subscribers. Where PvP is concerned, gear should give you a slight boost, but never guarantee a win. However, in many games advanced gear can prevent much or all of the damage inflicted between players leading to frustration over less skilled but better geared players dominating battlegrounds/warzones. If players can't win these games, then they cannot gear up, which leads to the gear gap growing wider and wider. This is especially jarring for players who come back to the game after taking a break for awhile, their gear does not allow them to compete and they can't get back to where they need to be. Gear should never be the end all between players, or content. I wish MMOs would emphasize skill more.


...And I think that's it. I'm glad we have this topic, and that people are spending time on their answers, hopefully this won't be a TL;DR type of thing. I'll add more later if I think of it.

[Andrew]

Now if only we could get people who don't primarily play MMOs to chip in to the conversation.

Outside opinions of the world MMO-ers play in would be refreshing to see.